1
1 UNITED STATES DISTRICT COURT
FOR THE DISTRICT OF COLUMBIA
2
------------------------x
3 VICTORIA JACKSON GRAY, : No. 02-cv-754-KLH-CKK-RJL
ADAMS et al., : No. 02-cv-781-KLH-CKK-RJL
4 : No. 02-cv-874-KLH-CKK-RJL
Plaintiffs, : No. 02-cv-875-KLH-CKK-RJL
5 : No. 02-cv-881-KLH-CKK-RJL
v. : No. 02-cv-877-KLH-CKK-RJL
6 : No. 02-cv-582-KLH-CKK-RJL
THE FEDERAL ELECTION : No. 02-cv-581-KLH-CKK-RJL
7 COMMISSION et al., : No. 02-cv-633-KLH-CKK-RJL
: No. 02-cv-751-KLH-CKK-RJL
8 Defendants. : No. 02-cv-753-KLH-CKK-RJL
------------------------x
9
Washington, D.C.
10
Monday, September 30, 2002
11
12 Deposition of
13 JOHN L. OLIVER, III
14 a Rule 30(b)6 witness on behalf of Bush for
15 President, Inc., called for examination by counsel
16 for the Plaintiffs, pursuant to notice and
17 agreement of counsel, beginning at approximately
18 4:45 p.m., at the law offices of Covington &
19 Burling, 1201 Pennsylvania Avenue, NW., Washington,
20 D.C., before Lauri M. Ploch of Beta Reporting &
21 Videography Services, notary public in and for the
22 District of Columbia, when were present on behalf
BETA REPORTING
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1 of the respective parties:
2 APPEARANCES:
3 On behalf of Plaintiffs:
4 JOHN C. BONIFAZ, ESQUIRE
LISA J. DANETZ, ESQUIRE
5 National Voting Rights Institute
One Bromfeld Street, Third Floor
6 Boston, Massachusetts 02108
(617) 368-9100
7
On behalf of Defendant Intervenors:
8
MONICA P. MEDINA, ESQUIRE
9 Heller Ehrman White & McAuliffe, L.L.P.
1660 K Street, N.W., Suite 300
10 Washington, D.C. 20006-1228
(202) 912-2000
11
On behalf of RNC and State Parties of
12 Ohio, Colorado and New Mexico:
13 BENJAMIN L. GINSBERG, ESQUIRE
MITCHELL R. BERGER, ESQUIRE
14 Patton Boggs, L.L.P.
2550 M Street, N.W.
15 Washington, D.C. 20037-1350
(202) 457-6000
16
On behalf of The Attorney General of
17 the United States:
18 TERRY M. HENRY, ESQUIRE
Federal Programs Branch
19 Civil Division
United States Department of Justice
20 901 E Street, N.W., Room 942
Washington, D.C. 20004
21 (202) 514-4107
22 * * * * *
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1 C O N T E N T S
2 EXAMINATION BY: PAGE
3 Counsel for Defendant Intervenors 4
4 Counsel for Plaintiffs 32
5 * Proceedings transcribed form page 127 to
page 149 designated CONFIDENTIAL -
6 ATTORNEYS' EYES ONLY and bound separately
per request.
7
BFP DEPOSITION EXHIBITS:
8
No. 1 - Notice of Substitute Deposition 33
9
No. 2 - Adams Personal Information Form 39
10
No. 3 - Cook Personal Information Form 85
11
No. 4 - January 4, 2000, Facsimile 108
12
No. 5 - Updated List of Pioneers 126
13
No. 6 - Invitation 132
14
No. 7 - Updated Confirmed Meetings 143
15
16
* * * * *
17
18
19
20
21
22
BETA REPORTING
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1 P R O C E E D I N G S
2 Whereupon,
3 JOHN L. OLIVER, III
4 was called as a witness and, having been
5 first duly sworn, was examined and testified
6 as follows:
7 EXAMINATION BY COUNSEL FOR DEFENDANT
8 INTERVENORS
9 BY MS. MEDINA:
10 Q Mr. Oliver, my name is Monica
11 Medina. I'm a lawyer with Heller Ehrman,
12 and I am one of the lawyers working for the
13 defendant intervenors in the case.
14 Do you know who those are?
15 A No, but that's okay. Who do you
16 represent?
17 Q I represent Senators McCain and
18 Feingold, Snowe, Jeffords, Congressman
19 Shays, the folks who were the main sponsors
20 of the Act.
21 When I say the word BICRA, do you
22 understand what that is?
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1 A No, I don't.
2 Q That's the Bipartison Campaign
3 Finance Reform Act that's the subject of
4 this lawsuit.
5 A Okay.
6 Q Good. I'm glad we cleared that
7 up. My purpose in talking with you today is
8 about your role in the Bush for President
9 campaign and Bush-Cheney 2000 campaigns.
10 Have I got the names of the
11 campaigns correct?
12 A Bush for President, primary.
13 Bush-Cheney, general, yes.
14 Q Bush-Cheney. Okay, thank you. My
15 questions have to do with the interactions
16 between the Bush-Cheney and perhaps
17 sometimes the Bush for President campaign
18 and the RNC. So it may be that you are
19 aware of those interactions -- it may not
20 be -- given your job in the Bush for
21 President and then Bush-Cheney campaign?
22 MR. BERGER: May I just respond to
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1 that before you go further?
2 MS. MEDINA: Yes, of course.
3 MR. BERGER: I'm not aware of a
4 cross notice for this deposition having been
5 served by the defendants intervenors, and
6 the subject as you've described it is
7 outside the scope of his 30(b)(6) notice.
8 MS. MEDINA: Well, I'm sorry if I
9 didn't see the scope of the 30(b)(6) notice.
10 If you could explain to me how it would be
11 outside the scope.
12 MR. BERGER: I haven't heard your
13 question yet, but there's nothing in this
14 notice that deals with the relationship
15 between the RNC and any of the Bush
16 campaigns.
17 MS. MEDINA: Well, as you know,
18 the notices of these depositions have been
19 going out late and they haven't been easy to
20 keep up with, so perhaps I've got the wrong
21 scope.
22 MR. BERGER: Well, unfortunately
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1 mine are all marked up with my notes. I
2 know you don't want to be reading my work
3 product.
4 MR. BONIFAZ: We are getting
5 copies.
6 MR. BERGER: The short answer is
7 that it's unfortunately not my problem nor
8 the witness's problem if you haven't seen
9 the deposition notice or if your subjects
10 are outside the scope. I've produced this
11 witness as to the limited negotiated scopes
12 of testimony and what you've described is
13 outside the scope.
14 MS. MEDINA: Well, why don't we
15 see if some of the questions will be within
16 the scope.
17 MR. BERGER: Sure, I will be happy
18 to take it on a question-by-question basis.
19 MS. DANETZ: I just found an
20 unmarked deposition notice. This is the
21 Schedule A. It's two pages.
22 MS. MEDINA: That will help me.
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1 So it only had to do with finances?
2 MS. DANETZ: Yes.
3 MS. MEDINA: Well, that will
4 shorten my questions.
5 BY MS. MEDINA:
6 Q Can you tell me whether the
7 Pioneers were given background information
8 about then Governor Bush?
9 A I'm sorry, what do you mean by
10 background?
11 Q Let me start again. Strike it.
12 Did the Bush-Cheney campaign meet
13 with the Pioneers from time to time?
14 A What do you mean by Bush-Cheney
15 campaign? In the general election?
16 Q Yes. In the general election, did
17 officials from the Bush-Cheney campaign meet
18 with the Pioneers as a group?
19 A I'm sorry, I'm trying to remember.
20 I don't remember a specific
21 instance but there may have been one.
22 Q Were the Pioneers given any
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1 information that they could use to raise
2 funds from other individuals about the Bush
3 champaign, the Bush-Cheney campaign?
4 A The Pioneers was about the Bush
5 for President campaign.
6 Q Only Bush for President?
7 A Yeah. It was in the general
8 election. The Bush-Cheney campaign could
9 not take contributions. As the law
10 dictates, in a general election mode, when
11 you take the federal government's money, you
12 don't raise resources for the general
13 election personally, as an election body,
14 entity.
15 Q Well, then let's go back.
16 Did the Bush campaign give the
17 Pioneers information that they could use to
18 raise funds from other individuals for the
19 Bush campaign?
20 A What kind of information? Bio
21 information?
22 Q Well, I guess I'm asking you that
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1 question. Biographical information or
2 information that might help solicit the
3 donations, that might help interest other
4 individuals in giving the donations.
5 A I'm sure we had a bio on then
6 Governor Bush that we made available if
7 people had questions about it and then
8 wanted copies of it.
9 Q Were there any other pieces of
10 information or brochures?
11 MR. BERGER: Outside the scope of
12 the notice, but if you can answer, go ahead.
13 THE WITNESS: I'm sorry, I'm
14 trying to understand what you mean by
15 brochure.
16 BY MS. MEDINA:
17 Q Let me go back. The Pioneers were
18 asked to donate money themselves, yes?
19 A Sure.
20 Q In addition to donating money of
21 their own, they solicited donations from
22 other individuals, yes?
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1 MR. BERGER: Object to the form.
2 It's leading. It's a third-party witness.
3 MS. MEDINA: You are right.
4 BY MS. MEDINA:
5 Q Were the Pioneers ever asked or
6 did they ever solicit contributions from
7 other individuals?
8 A Yes.
9 Q When they went about soliciting
10 contributions from other individuals, what
11 did the Bush champaign give them, the
12 Pioneers, to assist them in soliciting
13 information, or contributions, from other
14 individuals?
15 A In terms of paper?
16 Q Sure. Paper or briefings in
17 person, or telephone calls that might
18 have --
19 A I'm sorry. We had a web site that
20 had information on it for people to go to if
21 they had questions. Then Governor had a lot
22 of public appearances that was on national
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1 television or state TV or newspaper
2 articles. They were all publicly available
3 for view.
4 Q What was on the web site, do you
5 remember?
6 A I think there were -- to the best
7 of my knowledge it was -- I think there were
8 bios on the Governor and Mrs. Bush, and then
9 all the press releases that we had sent out
10 I think were on the web site. I also think
11 that speeches that the Governor gave were
12 also on the web site, but I can't be sure of
13 that without reviewing it.
14 Q When the Bush campaign solicited
15 donations from the Pioneers, did you use any
16 printed brochures or other types of
17 information?
18 A Well, what we had, if we were
19 soliciting people to come to an event, there
20 would have been an invitation for an event
21 or a direct mail fund raising letter that
22 would have been sent out.
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1 Q Who did the direct mail fund
2 raising letters for the Bush campaign?
3 MR. BERGER: Objection, outside
4 the scope of the notice, but go ahead and
5 answer it, if you can.
6 MS. MEDINA: The witness raised
7 it.
8 THE WITNESS: When you say "do,"
9 what do you mean?
10 BY MS. MEDINA:
11 Q Which consultant or which vendor
12 helped to produce the direct mail fund
13 raising letters?
14 A Olson and Delisi was the company.
15 Q Did the Century Strategies assist
16 at all in the direct mail?
17 A I don't remember if they ever did
18 a direct mail fund raising piece for us.
19 They may have but I don't remember.
20 Q Was Ralph Reed involved in any of
21 the fund raising or direct mail pieces for
22 the Pioneers?
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1 MR. BERGER: At this point I'm
2 going to object. This is outside the scope
3 of the notice. Your colleague representing
4 the defendants intervenors had the
5 opportunity to examine Mr. Oliver
6 individually at length this morning. I
7 assume there's some level of coordination
8 between you. If you had questions that you
9 wanted to ask of him in his individual
10 capacity, you should have had your
11 colleagues ask those questions. So I would
12 suggest we move on to another subject.
13 MS. MEDINA: Well, I guess I
14 thought I was here to have the opportunity
15 to depose a 30(b)(6) witness from the Bush
16 champaign, Bush-Cheney campaign. I wasn't
17 aware that in his individual capacity
18 Mr. Oliver wouldn't be able to answer those
19 questions, because I understood him to be
20 here representing himself in his current
21 capacity as deputy director or deputy
22 chair -- I'm sorry if I've got the title
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1 wrong -- of the RNC.
2 MR. BERGER: There's obviously
3 some miscommunication, but it's not on our
4 part. He is not here for all the purposes
5 as a 30(b)(6) representative of either the
6 primary campaign, Bush for President, Inc.,
7 or the general campaign, Bush-Cheney 2000.
8 He is here for very limited
9 purposes. Your questions are outside that
10 scope. However, we could have avoided that
11 problem had defendants intervenor asked him
12 that question in his individual capacity.
13 That deposition is closed, because your
14 colleagues, representing the same clients,
15 asked their questions and rested, so we are
16 done with that.
17 The man has been here since 8:00
18 this morning, so let's move on to subjects
19 that are within the scope of the notice.
20 MS. MEDINA: I believe we are
21 asking about how the Pioneers solicited
22 funds from their donors. We started down
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1 the road of direct mail, which was one way
2 in which they solicited funds from their
3 donors, and now I'm asking about vendors,
4 direct mail vendors, who might have been
5 involved in preparing the letters, the
6 direct mail fund raising letters, that were
7 used to solicit the Pioneers and other
8 donors.
9 MR. BERGER: I don't see how it's
10 within the scope of the notice. If you can
11 tell me, I'm happy to reconsider.
12 MS. MEDINA: Well, can I look at
13 the notice again? Thank you. It's about
14 communications between Bush-Cheney and the
15 Pioneers or between the Bush campaign and
16 the Pioneers. This witness just testified
17 that Bush-Cheney didn't communicate with the
18 Pioneers because they couldn't.
19 MR. BERGER: Right. I agree with
20 that part. He certainly said that. Your
21 question was about Ralph Reed. I don't hear
22 anything about communications between either
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1 of the campaigns and the Pioneers when you
2 ask a question about Ralph Reed.
3 MS. MEDINA: If Mr. Reed was the
4 author of any of the communications between
5 the campaign and the Pioneers.
6 MR. BERGER: I see, your question
7 lacks foundation. You haven't established
8 that Mr. Reed had anything to do with the
9 campaign.
10 MS. MEDINA: That's what I'm
11 trying to do, establish whether he might
12 have, whether or not he did, and if he did,
13 I'll ask the next question. I can't ask
14 that question until I have the foundation,
15 and that's why I'm asking the question.
16 MR. BERGER: Ask the question.
17 MS. MEDINA: Can we go back to see
18 what the question is? I think the witness
19 and I both can't remember it.
20 (The reporter read the record as
21 requested.)
22 THE WITNESS: I don't think Ralph
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1 Reed himself was involved -- his company was
2 involved. Ralph Reed was involved because
3 he was a Pioneer, but I don't think he
4 produced letters that were used on a broad
5 base for the Pioneer solicitations.
6 BY MS. MEDINA:
7 Q To your knowledge, was the
8 Christian Coalition involved in assisting
9 the Bush champaign in soliciting funds from
10 the Pioneers?
11 A Not to my knowledge.
12 Q Was former First Lady Barbara Bush
13 involved in any solicitations of the
14 Pioneers?
15 MR. BERGER: As an agent of the
16 campaign?
17 MS. MEDINA: As an agent of the
18 campaign.
19 THE WITNESS: I think she may have
20 signed a direct mail piece that went out to
21 the entire list but it wasn't Pioneer
22 specific.
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1 BY MS. MEDINA:
2 Q It wasn't Pioneer specific. Was
3 the current First Lady, Laura Bush, ever
4 involved in fund raising to the Pioneers or
5 for the Pioneers?
6 A The First Lady of Texas at the
7 time also signed a piece of direct mail
8 solicitation that went to the entire file
9 but it was not Pioneer specific.
10 Q So the Pioneers received direct
11 mail solicitations --
12 MR. BERGER: Let her finish the
13 question.
14 BY MS. MEDINA:
15 Q No, go ahead. Did the Pioneers
16 receive direct mail solicitations?
17 A I don't know. If they had given
18 the maximum by law, they probably were taken
19 off the list that we were soliciting.
20 Q Once they became Pioneers, did the
21 Pioneers receive regular e-mails or direct
22 mail letters updating them on the campaign,
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1 on how the campaign was proceeding?
2 A We sent communications to people
3 kind of updating them, broad-based, to a lot
4 of people, yes.
5 Q How many Pioneers were there?
6 A I don't know the exact number. I
7 think it's roughly 220? I don't know the
8 exact number.
9 Q How much did you have to
10 contribute to become a Pioneer?
11 A We didn't have to contribute
12 anything.
13 Q Okay, what was the criteria for
14 becoming a Pioneer?
15 A You were raising resources.
16 Q I see. So how much did you have
17 to raise to become a Pioneer?
18 A $100,000. $100,000.
19 Q There were 220 individuals who
20 raised $100,000 or more?
21 A In individual $1,000 or less
22 contributions, yes.
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1 Q Did these Pioneers who raised this
2 money receive any other special benefits for
3 being a Pioneer?
4 MR. BERGER: Object to the form.
5 You may answer.
6 THE WITNESS: Can you say that
7 again, please?
8 BY MS. MEDINA:
9 Q Did the Pioneers receive any other
10 special benefits because they were Pioneers?
11 MR. BERGER: Mischaracterizes his
12 testimony to the extent you are
13 suggesting --
14 MS. MEDINA: Any benefits.
15 MR. BERGER: Thank you.
16 THE WITNESS: They had
17 opportunities to have their picture taken at
18 events when we were in various cities that
19 they were involved in. As I testified,
20 there were instances where we had a special
21 event, at the convention.
22 BY MS. MEDINA:
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1 Q Did they have opportunities to
2 meet with you?
3 A Sure.
4 Q How often did you meet with the
5 Pioneers?
6 A As a group or as individuals?
7 Q Well, let's start with as a group.
8 A I don't remember how many times we
9 met together as a group. I don't think it
10 was many. Probably less than three or four.
11 Q What happened at those meetings
12 when you had the group together?
13 A Update on what was happening in
14 the campaign.
15 Q How specific were the updates?
16 A In what sense?
17 Q About what was happening in the
18 campaign. Did you give them polling
19 information?
20 A We did. There were presentations
21 on polls, yes.
22 Q Did you give them information
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1 about target or battleground states?
2 A Sure.
3 Q Did you give them information
4 about the upcoming messages or events that
5 the Governor, then Governor, would be
6 attending?
7 A You mean like did we give them
8 where the scheduled fund raisers were?
9 Q Yes, or speeches, or rallies.
10 A Sure.
11 Q Did you give them information that
12 you didn't make available to the general
13 public?
14 A I'm sure there's instances where
15 we shared polling information that was not
16 publicly available.
17 Q At that time?
18 A At that time.
19 Q Did you give them information
20 about where you were concerned about then
21 Governor Bush's ability to do well in the
22 primaries?
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1 MR. BERGER: Objection, lacks
2 foundation, but you may answer.
3 THE WITNESS: I'm sorry, I don't
4 understand what you mean by that, "do well."
5 BY MS. MEDINA:
6 Q Did you give them information
7 about primaries where you thought Governor
8 Bush might not win?
9 A That information was publicly
10 available. There were national polls and
11 news coverage that kind of laid that out for
12 people.
13 Q I understand that they may have
14 learned it from other places, but did you
15 talk about it with them?
16 A Did we talk to them about how we
17 were ahead in the campaign?
18 Q Yes.
19 A Yes.
20 Q Places where Governor Bush might
21 be trailing at the time?
22 A I cannot say that we did not have
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1 that conversation at some point in time, or
2 we indicated where we were behind and when
3 we were ahead.
4 Q Let me turn your attention -- may
5 I see the list again? One second.
6 Can you tell me whether or not you
7 personally had any discussions with one of
8 the Pioneers named Charles Wyly?
9 A Charles? Discussions about what?
10 Q Did you talk with him?
11 A There were instances that I've
12 talked to Charlie, Charlie Wyly, yes.
13 Q Did you talk with him during the
14 campaign? You may have talked with him
15 since then, but I'm really talking about
16 during the campaign.
17 A I'm sure there were events that he
18 was at that I was at that I may have said
19 hello to him. I don't remember a
20 substantive conversation with Charles Wyly.
21 Q Did he have regular contact with a
22 campaign that you know of?
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1 MR. BERGER: Objection, ambiguous,
2 but you may answer.
3 BY MS. MEDINA:
4 Q Did he talk to the campaign on a
5 monthly basis?
6 A He may have. I would be the
7 person he would talk to, and I don't
8 remember having a monthly conversation with
9 him.
10 Q Would you be the only person that
11 he might talk to?
12 A I don't know whom else -- I mean,
13 I'm sure he had the ability to talk to other
14 people, but I would be the likely person
15 that he would have called.
16 Q Could he have talked to other
17 people on your staff?
18 A Yes.
19 Q Why would you be the likely person
20 that he would have had contact with?
21 A Because I was the national finance
22 director and he was helping us to raise
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1 resources.
2 Q Do you recall any specific time
3 periods where you talked to him?
4 A I remember talking to him at the
5 kickoff.
6 Q When was that?
7 A The 7th -- I'm trying to remember.
8 The 7th of -- I think was at the 7th of
9 March event. He may not have been. I
10 remember talking to him early because we
11 were geared up, ready to roll.
12 Q What kind of things did he want to
13 talk about?
14 MR. BERGER: Objection. That's
15 outside the scope. There are two subjects
16 here under communications. One is
17 contributions and the other is policy.
18 BY MS. MEDINA:
19 Q Did he want to talk about policy?
20 A Not with me. Not with me.
21 Q He didn't talk about policy with
22 you?
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1 A No.
2 Q Might he have talked about policy
3 with anyone else within the campaign?
4 MR. BERGER: Objection, calls for
5 speculation.
6 THE WITNESS: I don't know the
7 answer.
8 BY MS. MEDINA:
9 Q Are you familiar with the group
10 Republicans for Clean Air?
11 MR. BERGER: Objection. It's
12 outside the scope of the notice, but you may
13 answer.
14 THE WITNESS: I'm not -- I don't
15 have a specific memory about that group.
16 BY MS. MEDINA:
17 Q How did you meet Mr. Wyly?
18 A I think I met him at an event in
19 Dallas.
20 Q What do you know about his
21 background?
22 A He was in support of Governor Bush
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1 in his campaigns for Governor.
2 Q Did you know anything else about
3 his background? Do you now know?
4 A Yeah, I do. I by now know --
5 Q You can't remember what you knew
6 then?
7 A I don't know what I knew then. I
8 knew he was a former supporter of the
9 Governor, but I didn't know exactly what
10 business specifically he was in.
11 Q Can you tell me what you know
12 about his background?
13 A That he was a supporter of the
14 Governor's, when the Governor ran for
15 governor.
16 Q Do you know what business he was
17 in?
18 A I think he was in the energy
19 business, but I'm not positive about that.
20 Q So you definitely remember having
21 contact with him in March of 1996?
22 A March or April, yeah, in that time
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1 period.
2 Q What was that contact, do you
3 remember?
4 A Just I think I called him and
5 introduced myself.
6 MR. BERGER: You said '96.
7 MS. MEDINA: I mean 2000. I'm
8 sorry.
9 THE WITNESS: Ninety-nine, it was
10 in '99.
11 BY MS. MEDINA:
12 Q Oh, I see, March of '99.
13 A Uh-huh.
14 Q Then how often might you have
15 talked to him after that?
16 A Infrequently, maybe a couple more
17 times throughout the campaign, if I saw him
18 at an event.
19 Q He was one of the earlier
20 Pioneers?
21 A I don't remember whether he became
22 a Pioneer. He was a long-time supporter of
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1 the Governor's.
2 Q I think you said before you
3 remembered talking with him early on?
4 A I did remember talking with him
5 early on, but I don't know when he achieved
6 Pioneer status, which is what you just asked
7 me.
8 Q I see.
9 MR. BERGER: You are getting good
10 at this.
11 MS. MEDINA: Who is, he or me?
12 MR. BERGER: He has got the
13 objections down. He has been doing this all
14 day. I'm going to leave now.
15 THE WITNESS: I'm going to fall
16 asleep now.
17 MS. MEDINA: I think I'm done,
18 actually. Because of the scope, I don't
19 think I can ask any of my other questions,
20 so I will conclude with that.
21 MR. BONIFAZ: Can we take a
22 one-minute break and I can explain what is
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1 happening here?
2 (Recess)
3 EXAMINATION BY COUNSEL FOR PLAINTIFFS
4 BY MR. BONIFAZ:
5 Q Sir, just to start things off, can
6 you please state your full name for the
7 record?
8 A John Leachman Oliver, III.
9 MR. BONIFAZ: For the purpose of
10 this transcript, Mr. Oliver, my name is John
11 Bonifaz. I'm the director of the National
12 Voting Rights Institute based in Boston.
13 Lisa Danetz is an attorney at the Institute,
14 and together we are going to be asking you
15 questions at this deposition.
16 We are co-counsel for the Adams
17 plaintiffs, which is the case Adams, et al.,
18 v FEC, et al., which is the case challenging
19 the increase in the hard money limits, one
20 of the 11 consolidated cases challenging
21 certain provisions of the Bipartison
22 Campaign Reform Act.
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1 (BFP Deposition Exhibit No. 1
2 was marked for identification.)
3 BY MR. BONIFAZ:
4 Q You have in front of you what has
5 been marked BFP Exhibit No. 1. This is an
6 exhibit to highlight the terms of this
7 deposition. This is a Notice of Substitute
8 Deposition under Rules 30(b)(6) and 45 of
9 the Federal Rules of Civil Procedure.
10 I would like to turn your
11 attention to page three, Schedule A, which
12 identifies the subject matters of this
13 deposition.
14 First, are you aware of what
15 a 30(b)(6) deposition is?
16 A Yes.
17 Q What is your understanding of what
18 it is?
19 A I don't know the legal
20 terminology, but that I am testifying on
21 behalf of the campaign.
22 Q You are here to testify on both
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1 the behalf of the Bush for President, Inc.
2 campaign and Bush-Cheney 2000; is that
3 correct?
4 A That's my understanding, that is
5 correct.
6 Is that right?
7 MR. BERGER: That's correct.
8 BY MR. BONIFAZ:
9 Q You are here to testify on these
10 subject matters under Schedule A with the
11 understanding that Point No. 8 is in
12 contention. Is that also your
13 understanding?
14 MR. BERGER: I don't know if the
15 witness has been briefed on all of the back
16 and forth of the lawyers' bickering, for
17 lack of a better word.
18 MR. BONIFAZ: I thought it was
19 quite friendly.
20 MR. BERGER: It was, and
21 consistent with my friendly communication
22 with you, you took my suggestion and asked
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1 him in his individual capacity a number of
2 questions, all of which would fit within
3 that category, so I see we are proceeding as
4 predicted.
5 BY MR. BONIFAZ:
6 Q What I'm trying to establish is
7 whether you, Mr. Oliver, are aware that you
8 are here to testify on these subject matters
9 listed on Schedule A of this deposition
10 notice.
11 A You mean me as an individual or me
12 as a 30(b)(6)?
13 Q 30(b)(6) deponent.
14 A Yes, I'm aware of this.
15 Q What have you done to prepare
16 yourself to testify on these subject matters
17 today?
18 A I have talked with my counsel
19 about it in preparation for it.
20 Q Have you done any separate
21 investigation, research, to refresh your
22 recollection and be able to be prepared to
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1 answer questions on these subject areas?
2 A I've reviewed the documents that
3 my lawyers provided to you.
4 Q Have you done anything else?
5 MR. BERGER: Well, without getting
6 into the content of his communications with
7 lawyers, I'm happy to make the
8 representation on the record that we are
9 perfectly well aware of what 30(b)(6)
10 requires. This is a campaign that has not
11 been in active existence for nearly two
12 years, but yes, we have reached out to
13 people to the extent they can be found who
14 worked with him and for him, and we have
15 posed questions where they were not within
16 his individual knowledge.
17 MR. BONIFAZ: So just to be clear
18 here, when you say "we," that includes
19 Mr. Oliver?
20 MR. BERGER: Well, either
21 Mr. Oliver or people working with him. For
22 example, in preparing him, if he had
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1 questions that we could assist him in
2 answering, then we would make inquiries. He
3 is not obliged to make those inquiries
4 individually but to work with others.
5 MR. BONIFAZ: Some effort has been
6 made by you in conjunction with Mr. Oliver
7 to be able to answer questions on these
8 subject areas?
9 MR. BERGER: Yes. I mean, to the
10 extent there's information available on this
11 subject, he starts with a very strong base
12 of knowledge. He is currently the finance
13 director, and to the extent that others
14 worked for him or with him, we have made
15 inquiries to them and provided him the
16 answer.
17 MR. BONIFAZ: I'm going to turn
18 over Ms. Danetz to begin questioning on
19 these areas.
20 MR. BERGER: You mean I shouldn't
21 make my objection now that one counsel is
22 allowed to question the witness so we can
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1 move to strike everything that has been
2 asked?
3 MS. DANETZ: Are you going to make
4 that objection?
5 MR. BERGER: I don't think so, no.
6 MS. DANETZ: If you are going to
7 make that objection, then I will let John
8 continue.
9 For ease of reference I'm going to
10 just hand everybody a stack of the documents
11 that have been produced. That way I don't
12 have to fish through as I mark an exhibit.
13 I will also let you know the Bates number.
14 Also, for purposes of the record,
15 many of the documents that were produced
16 were labeled confidential, counsel only, and
17 should be so designated in the transcript.
18 I will, of course, let you know as I mark
19 each one.
20 MR. BERGER: We are going to hand
21 you one. You can look at them now.
22 THE WITNESS: I didn't know what
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1 we were doing.
2 MR. BERGER: Might as well take a
3 look at them now so you know what is coming.
4 MS. DANETZ: I am going to start
5 by reference to the documents numbered --
6 and you may want to write this down so you
7 can just refer to it -- BFP 4, BFP 7
8 through 299, and BFP 491.
9 I'm going to start by having BFP 4
10 marked as BFP Exhibit No. 2.
11 (BFP Deposition Exhibit No. 2
12 was marked for identification.)
13 BY MS. DANETZ:
14 Q Mr. Oliver, if you would, you may
15 want to look through the documents that I
16 identified for reference, because I don't
17 want to ask you something and have you think
18 that I'm misrepresenting, because I'm going
19 to be asking you about those documents.
20 A Let's pull aside the documents
21 that she is going to ask me about.
22 MR. BERGER: Four?
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1 THE WITNESS: Yes.
2 MR. BERGER: Seven through 299, if
3 I remember her correctly.
4 MS. DANETZ: Yes.
5 MR. BERGER: Which is more of
6 same.
7 THE WITNESS: Okay.
8 MS. DANETZ: I can represent
9 that 491 is a similar looking form with
10 different information.
11 MR. BERGER: Is there anything
12 more after 491?
13 MS. DANETZ: No, not for this set
14 of questions.
15 BY MS. DANETZ:
16 Q Can you tell me what the form that
17 I have now marked as BFP Exhibit 2 is?
18 A This is a solicitor tracking form.
19 Q What does that mean?
20 A It's a solicitor tracking form
21 that was given to an individual when they
22 signed up to be an authorized agent of the
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1 campaign.
2 Q It was given by Bush for
3 President?
4 A This individual form, yes. I
5 mean, yes, it was given by Bush or President
6 or Governor George W. Bush Presidential
7 Exploratory Committee.
8 Q It says George W. Bush
9 Presidential Exploratory Committee at the
10 top. Is that accurate?
11 A Yes, yes, it does.
12 Q Now, once the Exploratory
13 Committee, for lack of a better phrase,
14 segued into Bush for President, did Bush for
15 President continue to use this same form?
16 A I think that this -- the form --
17 there was a form that was used that was this
18 form. I'm not sure if it was this one or a
19 different variation of the form, but there
20 was a form that was used for solicitor
21 tracking numbers that would have contained
22 this information.
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1 Q It would have been substantially
2 similar information?
3 A Yes.
4 Q I don't want to mischaracterize
5 your testimony, but I'm just trying to
6 remember the answer you gave earlier where
7 you said this was a form that people filled
8 out when they signed up with the Pioneer
9 program; is that correct?
10 No, it's not correct?
11 A This is a form that was used when
12 people signed up to be agents of the
13 campaign and raise money on behalf of the
14 campaign.
15 Q So anybody who wanted to raise
16 money on behalf of the campaign would fill
17 out a form like this; is that true?
18 A Yes. Not anybody. Yes, people
19 that had called and said we want to raise
20 money for the campaign, we used this form to
21 sign them up to be agents of the campaign,
22 that's correct.
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1 Q So I just want to make sure I'm
2 understanding. So did all agents of the
3 campaign then fill out one of these forms?
4 A To the best of my knowledge,
5 everybody that we signed up to be an agent
6 filled out one of these forms, but I don't
7 know the answer to whether every single
8 person who raised money for the campaign
9 filed one.
10 Q But that was the practice?
11 A Yes, that was the practice.
12 Q Could you read for me what this
13 form says in the top right-hand corner?
14 MR. BERGER: In the spirit of
15 moving this along, there's really no point
16 in having the witness read you things we can
17 all agree on. You are asking him about the
18 solicitor tracking number?
19 MS. DANETZ: Yes.
20 MR. BERGER: What would you like
21 to know about the solicitor tracking number.
22 BY MS. DANETZ:
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1 Q In your personal deposition -- and
2 again, I'm not meaning to mischaracterize
3 your testimony at all, so feel free to
4 correct me if I do so mischaracterize it --
5 but in your personal deposition you
6 testified about tracking numbers that were
7 assigned to people in the Pioneer program;
8 is that true?
9 A I testified that there were
10 tracking numbers assigned to people who
11 wanted to become authorized agents of the
12 campaign and help the campaign. Some of
13 those people went on to be Pioneers, yes.
14 Q Is this an example of one of those
15 tracking numbers?
16 A This is an example of a tracking
17 number that was assigned to an individual,
18 yes.
19 Q In the documents that I have
20 identified for reference, which again are
21 BFP 4, BFP 7 through 299, and BFP 491, are
22 the numbers in the upper right-hand corner
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1 of those documents also the tracking numbers
2 that you have been referring to?
3 A They should be, but unless I look
4 at each one of them, I don't know the
5 answer. I think so.
6 MR. BERGER: In the spirit
7 of 30(b)(6) -- and the witness can correct
8 me if I've got this wrong -- what we
9 produced to you were the tracking forms
10 containing solicitor identification numbers
11 that were assigned to people who went on to
12 become Pioneers, so it is a subset of all of
13 the solicitor tracking forms signed by
14 authorized agents of the campaign, this
15 subset relating to Pioneers.
16 MS. DANETZ: Okay, great.
17 THE WITNESS: That's right. He
18 said it much more eloquently than I could.
19 MR. BERGER: If you want
20 collective information, we are here to give
21 you collective information.
22 MS. DANETZ: I have to say I am
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1 happy to have collective information as long
2 as you are representing it's from Bush for
3 President or Bush-Cheney 2000.
4 MR. BERGER: We are going to do
5 our level best to make sure you get that
6 information, whether it's from him or from
7 me.
8 (Discussion off the record)
9 BY MS. DANETZ:
10 Q Once somebody was an authorized
11 agent of the campaign and had a number, did
12 they indicate in some way that donations
13 were the result of their fund raising
14 efforts to the campaign?
15 A What do you mean by indicate?
16 Q In other words -- and I'll just,
17 to move this along -- press reports have
18 indicated that if somebody raised money and
19 they wanted attribution to their tracking
20 number that they would write the tracking
21 number on the check that they had solicited.
22 Is that accurate?
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1 A Oh, I'm sure there are occasions
2 where individuals indicated on the response
3 device cards.
4 Q I'm sorry, the --
5 A A card. The federal law requires
6 you to -- I don't know if you have one of
7 those or not. I don't know if there's one
8 in existence.
9 The Federal Election Law requires
10 you to get the following information when
11 someone gives more than $200. Employer
12 information. The wording -- and don't quote
13 me on this -- but I think it's best
14 estimates -- best efforts to get that
15 information.
16 Q What was that card called?
17 A It's a response device.
18 Q Response device?
19 A Uh-huh. If you are coming to a
20 state, you've got to mail in a card and tell
21 them you are coming. It's called a response
22 device.
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1 Q So I guess I don't understand.
2 How do tracking numbers relate to the
3 response device card?
4 A There was a place on the response
5 device where you could put in a tracking
6 number.
7 Q So if an authorized agent -- I
8 guess I'm curious. Why would something sent
9 out from an authorized agent result in a
10 response device card coming back to the
11 campaign?
12 A Well, if you send out a letter --
13 let's say someone sent out a letter, okay?
14 On behalf of the campaign. Then they would
15 include in that response device -- they
16 would potentially include the response
17 device and an envelope for it to be sent
18 back by Bush for President.
19 Q When you say someone sent out a
20 letter, you mean an agent of the campaign
21 sent out a letter?
22 A Uh-huh.
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1 Q To a bunch of people? To who?
2 A To whomever he or she were
3 soliciting contributions from.
4 Q So an authorized agent of the
5 campaign would sent out -- can I call it a
6 solicitation?
7 A Sure.
8 Q So an authorized agent would send
9 out a solicitation to people who they were
10 trying to fund raise from, on behalf of Bush
11 for President; is that accurate?
12 A Yes.
13 Q Then included in that letter would
14 be this response device card that you were
15 talking about?
16 A Sure.
17 Q In the letter from the agent to
18 whoever was being solicited, would they
19 indicate, you know, my tracking number is X?
20 How did the person who was the target of the
21 solicitation know a particular tracking
22 number to write on the response device card?
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1 A I don't know how they would know.
2 I mean, the response device card may --
3 somebody may have filled it in before they
4 sent in the little the space that said
5 tracking number, or they could have
6 encouraged people in the body of the letter
7 to put a tracking number on it.
8 Q Was it a common practice for the
9 agents to write tracking numbers on the
10 response device card?
11 A I don't know. I don't know if it
12 was a common practice. I'm sure it
13 occurred.
14 Q Well, by the definition of the
15 word agent -- I'm not trying to trick you,
16 I'm really trying to understand here -- if
17 they were an agent of the campaign, they are
18 doing it on behalf of the campaign?
19 A Right.
20 Q Is that true? You are here today
21 to testify on behalf of the campaign; is
22 that true?
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1 A That's correct.
2 Q So what I'm trying to understand
3 is, was it a regular practice of the
4 campaign through the particular agents to
5 write a particular tracking number on the
6 response device card that would then be sent
7 back in?
8 A I think there are people that were
9 authorized agents that did that, yes. I
10 don't know if it was a regular practice of
11 the campaign. It was probably more a
12 practice of the agent, he or she themselves.
13 Q Do you know, in your capacity as a
14 representative of Bush for President, do you
15 know of other ways that agents conveyed or
16 told the people they were soliciting, this
17 is the tracking number, and I would like you
18 to write it either on your response device
19 card or somewhere else to let the campaign
20 know?
21 A Sure. People put that in letters
22 as well.
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1 Q I see. So if you know, what would
2 be an example of something that someone
3 would write in a letter?
4 A You are asking me for speculation.
5 You could put, please put my personal
6 tracking number, you know, 1234, on your
7 checks, as I'm trying to become a Pioneer.
8 Q Now, when the campaign received
9 checks and/or response device cards, and
10 they had tracking numbers on it, what did
11 they do with that information?
12 A I think it was -- when the checks
13 came in from individuals, they usually came
14 in to -- they would come in to one of the
15 staff, and they would be tracked. There
16 would be a computer indication, an entry
17 into a computer, that they had received a
18 contribution on behalf -- they had received
19 a contribution with that tracking number on
20 it.
21 Q I see, so was there a spreadsheet
22 of some sort maintained?
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